Well, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about the veterinary torture, but thanks for writing such a cogent, heartfelt, lovely counterpoint that really addressed the issues beautifully.

Emily, I am taking some liberty here but I think that overall we might have a similar broad-view about the treatment of animals.

All of that being said, Emily I hope you will accept what I am about to say as something to think about, whether you agree or not. Even if its your gut reaction to disagree, please just promise yourself to think about it a little longer past the disagreement. I am okay with what the poster Mary mentioned about the way they practice in veterinary school. You mentioned that no dog should be made to suffer due to humans being irresponsible in breeding and such, and I completely agree with you. However, I think it’s counter-productive to think that by trying to make the most out of a bad situation, vet schools such as Mary’s are somehow exacerbating the situation. Assuming that her school doesn’t promote wanton breeding and neglect of animals, they are truly making the best out of a bad situation. It is my hope that we can increase the level of responsibility when it comes to the care, treatment, and breeding of all animals across the board. However, to do so will require a bit of understanding on both sides.

You made some excellent points about the progress of human medicine through cruel experiments on humans–Nazi or otherwise. While I am totally appalled with a lot of the lax practices in lab animal research that I do often think amounts to torture (regardless of whether some might say it is justified by the ends or not), the situation Mary described seems to be more like clinical research to me. These animals are going to die regardless — such as an end-stage cancer patient. They are used in the meantime to further veterinary research (such as a cancer patient on an experimental trial might be furthering medical research). My mom just passed from pancreatic cancer recently, and we completely knew that the experimental vit c treatment was unlikely to cure her. However, knowing that she was going to die anyway, and that there was some potential benefit for others from the Vit C trial (rather than no potential benefit to anybody if she had just perished), she went for the study. The disturbing aspect of this is the fact that animals can’t give their own consent for such a thing, so it is being forced upon them. Unfortunately, they have no say in anything along any stage of their life that happens. It is my hope that some day there will be no more breeding or commercial animal use, but until that time I am comfortable with what Mary said. It did leave somewhat of a sick feeling in my stomach at first, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that it’s the best realistic solution at the time. Had the other option been to let the dogs live a happy life adopted by somebody and not encounter euthanasia at all, then I would have considered the vet school cruel for what they’re doing. However, preventing the dogs from getting euthanized is not within their control (or that of any one person — it is a problem that society as a whole needs to addres). The best thing those that are concerned for animal rights can do is try to push for realistic improvements at every step of the way. As more and more improvements are made overall, being able to prevent the situation Mary described might be possible way down the road. At the time being, we are totally not there and I think that what they’re doing is an improvement over simply euthanizing an animal due to lack of care/overpopulation.

Of course, I say all of this under the assumption that anasthesia does obliterate any pain and that at no point during the procedures are the animals suffering.

Thank you so much!

I’m glad you agree that this is a controversial subject, and I’m so GLAD to hear your heart has some problems with it as well. I also agree with you that it is important to at least understand what is happening. However, I disagree with you that these vet schools aren’t torturing these dogs.

Um, interesting choice of examples — PCRM just declared a victory in forcing Iowa State to stop using healthy live animals to practice emergency procedures on. So, I don’t think they made that jump to using pipes willingly — we have PCRM to thank for stopping Iowa State from torturing live dogs.

Second point, so you’re okay with using healthy dogs as subjects for unnecessary surgeries, but you oppose my using the word “torture” for these since according to you, none of these dogs are ever allowed to wake up once they’ve started being attacked with a scalpel? I guess I can honor your opinion there — if that’s the way you feel, that’s the way you feel, and it is your right, and I don’t dispute that. Again though, I’m a little unsure of the whole they’re under anesthesia, therefore it’s painless, argument. I had a pet that died while I was on vacation, and the veterinarian told me they couldn’t keep her alive till I returned — there were no pain medications that would dull her state of pain, and that they could keep her under anesthesia at different levels of consciousness — just a little would basically keep her not moving for the MRI, a lot would almost kill her, etc.

So, I’m wondering — I always find it funny when people claim things aren’t torture or “bad” in any way if they’re done to animals — just substitute the word “human” there and suddenly they turn around. Do you feel the same way? If I took a human being, anesthetized them, performed all kinds of unnecessary procedures on them, and then killed them, would you NOT consider that torture? Or sick? Or do you think that would be good medicine? You wouldn’t worry about the anesthesia levels being high enough? (No jokes about human medicine here, please! I know there are lots of unnecessary procedures that occur there )

That is a really good point about the animals having a chance of being cared for and played with by the students — I really like to think that happens.

I think the current trend in veterinary medicine of moving away from taking unwanted dogs and performing unnecessary, though anesthetized, surgeries on them, and instead turning to shelter medicine, is the far more humane way to go. Long live shelter medicine! (I’ve been keeping up on the veterinary trends, as you can see . . . )

Thanks for writing in,

Also, Emily referred to torture situations and compared these surgeries with those and I think that that comparison is inaccurate. These animals (at least at Iowa State) are not tortured. They are taken in by the school and cared for when the humane society is going to euthanize them. Then, they are put under like they are going into real surgery (which means they can’t feel anything, since when I have been put under for surgery it is painless, and you wake up and just feel like you forgot the last couple of hours). The surgery is done exactly as it would be done in a real vet clinic as if they animal would be woken up again. Then the anesthetic is increased. So the animal feels no more pain then they would have if they would have just been put to sleep. And they have the chance of living a bit longer and being cared for and played with by the students. They also have the chance of being adopted by the students.

I agree with the fact that this is a very controversial subject. And my heart has some problems with it as well. But I think it is important to at least understand what is happening, and not try to make it sound like these vet schools are torturing these dogs. I am by no means saying these surgeries are “okay” but people should be properly informed before they decide on their own opinion.

Please read:

http://www.badvetdaily.blogspot.com
http://www.SheridanTruth.com
http://www.TheTooncesProject.com
http://www.VetAbuseNetwork.com

There are definately shady vets out there. Years ago (I think it was like 2002 )I was watching dateline or something like that and a person that worked at a vets clinic witnessed the vet beating animals. She put a hidden camera and oh my god it was horrific. The vet punched a cat over and over again in the head while the cat was under anesthesia. The vet was also shown whipping a dog with the dog’s leash! The disgusting monster when to court and the judge let him go! I can’t believe how horrible. I was honestly sitting on my couch and crying and cursing the damn creeps.